Comments on: Shepherding http://panesofglass.org/christianity/shepherding/ Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:45:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3-aortic-dissection By: Ryan http://panesofglass.org/christianity/shepherding/comment-page-1/#comment-4676 Ryan Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:55:32 +0000 http://panesofglass.org/?p=291#comment-4676 You are right on it depending on definition. I may be throwing too much of evangelism under shepherding, and certainly it is Christ's role to seek and save the lost sheep. I do think it falls within the definition, though, since as the shepherd He does that, and we are to do the work that He is doing. I generally think of evangelism as telling everyone the good news about Christ, not specifically bringing people to him, which would seem more like shepherding. That's probably an overlap of definitions. You are right on it depending on definition. I may be throwing too much of evangelism under shepherding, and certainly it is Christ’s role to seek and save the lost sheep. I do think it falls within the definition, though, since as the shepherd He does that, and we are to do the work that He is doing. I generally think of evangelism as telling everyone the good news about Christ, not specifically bringing people to him, which would seem more like shepherding. That’s probably an overlap of definitions.

]]> By: Chad http://panesofglass.org/christianity/shepherding/comment-page-1/#comment-4675 Chad Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:41:52 +0000 http://panesofglass.org/?p=291#comment-4675 Thanks for the reply. I am still of the opinion that shepherding is for sheep (or at least those who claim to be sheep). The use of Jesus coming to seek and save the lost sheep is to much like the example you give in your last paragraph. It is a desciption of the messianic nature of Christ and cannot be directly applied to our ministry. We can in no way save lost sheep (I am not implying that you are stating we can). Obvioulsy, there is a responsibility to those outside the flock, but I do not think of it in terms of shepherding. This may be only a wording issue since I guess it comes down to how one defines shepherding. The second question was in a more general since not specifically related to Artifact. Just asking what it means to be called out as a shepherd not so much what would it mean to shepherd Artifact specifically. Thanks for the reply. I am still of the opinion that shepherding is for sheep (or at least those who claim to be sheep). The use of Jesus coming to seek and save the lost sheep is to much like the example you give in your last paragraph. It is a desciption of the messianic nature of Christ and cannot be directly applied to our ministry. We can in no way save lost sheep (I am not implying that you are stating we can). Obvioulsy, there is a responsibility to those outside the flock, but I do not think of it in terms of shepherding. This may be only a wording issue since I guess it comes down to how one defines shepherding.

The second question was in a more general since not specifically related to Artifact. Just asking what it means to be called out as a shepherd not so much what would it mean to shepherd Artifact specifically.

]]> By: Ryan http://panesofglass.org/christianity/shepherding/comment-page-1/#comment-4674 Ryan Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:08:37 +0000 http://panesofglass.org/?p=291#comment-4674 Those are excellent questions, Chad. As I studied, I found that the rabbit hole seems to grow deeper as you go, so I finally cut off my thoughts and didn't really address some of these things, nor did I come to conclusions on many of them. As to your first question, however, I do think that we do need to attempt to be under-shepherds to even those who may not yet claim to be sheep, at least in the sense of the analogy. Jesus came to seek and save the lost sheep (Luke 19:10). These, then, did not claim to be sheep, but Christ came after them. We may not be able to easily recognize a lost sheep from a goat, but I think that the more we abide in Christ, the more familiar will the eyes of our heart be to recognizing them. As to your second question, I didn't go there but left it as a question for the group. The early church had apostles, elders, deacons, and others, whereas we have no real positions. In Ephesians 4:11-13, Paul describes how Christ "gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, <em>the shepherds</em>, and teachers to equip the saints." This indicates that "shepherd" is a called-to position in the body, which appears to counter this post and the general consensus last night. However, I would say that in our case, we are all at that level and, through our discussions of wanting all to be involved in one another's lives, have on some level raised all to be shepherds. Travis's description of the overlaps between shepherding and discipleship I think were right on--that there is an extra bit to discipleship that goes deeper into the growing up into a mature Christian and that shepherding focuses on tending the needs of the flock and leading it in the right direction. As for characteristics, all I could really find were what seemed the obvious analogies to a real shepherd, as we discussed last night. Unlike elders and deacons, I gathered that the writers intended for their readers to take shepherd literally, much like Jesus when He said, "I'll make you fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19). I hope that makes sense. Also, please note that while a lot of the scripture used references aspects of Jesus's Messiah-ship, I tried to pull the general shepherding aspects out that apply to the shepherds of his Church. There is meaning behind "I lay down my life for the sheep" of which none of us has any part; that meaning is purely for our Lord. Those are excellent questions, Chad. As I studied, I found that the rabbit hole seems to grow deeper as you go, so I finally cut off my thoughts and didn’t really address some of these things, nor did I come to conclusions on many of them. As to your first question, however, I do think that we do need to attempt to be under-shepherds to even those who may not yet claim to be sheep, at least in the sense of the analogy. Jesus came to seek and save the lost sheep (Luke 19:10). These, then, did not claim to be sheep, but Christ came after them. We may not be able to easily recognize a lost sheep from a goat, but I think that the more we abide in Christ, the more familiar will the eyes of our heart be to recognizing them.

As to your second question, I didn’t go there but left it as a question for the group. The early church had apostles, elders, deacons, and others, whereas we have no real positions. In Ephesians 4:11-13, Paul describes how Christ “gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints.” This indicates that “shepherd” is a called-to position in the body, which appears to counter this post and the general consensus last night. However, I would say that in our case, we are all at that level and, through our discussions of wanting all to be involved in one another’s lives, have on some level raised all to be shepherds.

Travis’s description of the overlaps between shepherding and discipleship I think were right on–that there is an extra bit to discipleship that goes deeper into the growing up into a mature Christian and that shepherding focuses on tending the needs of the flock and leading it in the right direction. As for characteristics, all I could really find were what seemed the obvious analogies to a real shepherd, as we discussed last night. Unlike elders and deacons, I gathered that the writers intended for their readers to take shepherd literally, much like Jesus when He said, “I’ll make you fishers of men” (Matthew 4:19).

I hope that makes sense. Also, please note that while a lot of the scripture used references aspects of Jesus’s Messiah-ship, I tried to pull the general shepherding aspects out that apply to the shepherds of his Church. There is meaning behind “I lay down my life for the sheep” of which none of us has any part; that meaning is purely for our Lord.

]]> By: Chad http://panesofglass.org/christianity/shepherding/comment-page-1/#comment-4672 Chad Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:35:05 +0000 http://panesofglass.org/?p=291#comment-4672 Ryan, I really enjoyed the discussion last night and appreciate all your effort in preparing to lead it. The thoughts really led to some honest dialogue about our unwillingness to reach out to those around us whether they are in the church or not. I was having some theological questions as we went on but I thought those would best be discussed here, since it most likely would have killed the spirit of the evening. Here are the two questions I am having, I was interested in your thoughts sinve you have spent the most time looking into these ideas: 1. In John 10:1-6 the sheep seem to be described as those who hear the shepherds voice, follow his lead, and flee from those who they do not know. This imagery is taken from Numbers 27 and Ezekiel 34 and I find the same sort of descriptions of sheep predominant there. My question is can we shepherd those who do not claim to be sheep? This is not a call for us to judge who are sheeps or goats, but to be considered a sheep seems to infer that one claims the Shepherd (Christ). So we as undersheperds, can we truly attempt to shepherd those who do not claim to be sheep? 2. Did you see a difference in Scripture between "everyone as a shepherd" and those called to be "shepherds"? I am only beginning to look at this idea so I was wondering if you came across any sort of defining characteristics of those called to be shepherds compared to the responsibilities of all as shepherds. Ryan, I really enjoyed the discussion last night and appreciate all your effort in preparing to lead it. The thoughts really led to some honest dialogue about our unwillingness to reach out to those around us whether they are in the church or not. I was having some theological questions as we went on but I thought those would best be discussed here, since it most likely would have killed the spirit of the evening. Here are the two questions I am having, I was interested in your thoughts sinve you have spent the most time looking into these ideas:

1. In John 10:1-6 the sheep seem to be described as those who hear the shepherds voice, follow his lead, and flee from those who they do not know. This imagery is taken from Numbers 27 and Ezekiel 34 and I find the same sort of descriptions of sheep predominant there. My question is can we shepherd those who do not claim to be sheep? This is not a call for us to judge who are sheeps or goats, but to be considered a sheep seems to infer that one claims the Shepherd (Christ). So we as undersheperds, can we truly attempt to shepherd those who do not claim to be sheep?

2. Did you see a difference in Scripture between “everyone as a shepherd” and those called to be “shepherds”? I am only beginning to look at this idea so I was wondering if you came across any sort of defining characteristics of those called to be shepherds compared to the responsibilities of all as shepherds.

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